THE MBEKI INITIATIVE: DEBATE FROM HOVE'S SUBMISSION!

From brightonmusonza@arim.co.uk

Mbeki as a dictator, and all sorts of cynical conniver with one Robert Mugabe is well described by one of his own here: http://www.sundaytimes.co.za/Columnists/Article.aspx?id=586595
I don't know how he would be better for Zimbabwe when his own people feel otherwise! MDC got duped and they have got to leave with it.
For me, Mbeki and Mugabe will run a close call race in as far as all bad things about rogue, monstrous African Presidents.

@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

Peter.Moyo@etv.co.za

The problem is that as much as people call Mbeki a dictator, there is no evidence to the contrary. In which country is he a dictator? South Africa ? Which South Africa ? The one I live in? Don’t believe the hype, especially those written by people with vendettas. South Africa has a functioning constitution as well as ANC which Mbeki even with two thirds majority has never bothered to manipulate or change. He has served his two terms and will be out by 2009 – so tell me, what really makes Mbeki a dictator? Just because he has refused to be used by Zimbabweans who are failing to sit down and agree about how to take the country forward? Or westerners who are still crying about the farms taken back by their rightful owners?


@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

B MUSONZA:

Why do you rush to associate our accusations of Mbeki, the dictator to Westerners, brother Peter. Mbeki is a dictator. Period. Infact the worst thing to have happened to a young South African democracy, and not in the context of the Zimbabwean crisis. If you read the recent figures of the South African economy, you will learn that the country is moving in the wrong direction, but spin and teasing is now the order of the day. Black outs, interest rates, crime, HIV/Aids, corruption, poor housing, poor education in the country's black communities only supplemented by Zimbabwean economic refugees. You name it.
One using State resources to destroy opponents with trumped up charges, one who imprisoning journalists because they dare tell the world that the Health Minister is a drunkard and a thief, one who interferes with the judicial process of his own State prosecution Authority to protect his cronies. A President barred by the Constitution of his country and party to run for a third term but still insists he will defy that.
The guy is a failure, and is now responsible for the early break away of the coalition, which is now inevitable.
If this is not dictatorial, now we wonder what is.

@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

P MOYO:

I think you are applying too much emotion. An economy that is able to absorb three million Zimbabweans is definitely a sound economy. Check the figures – this economy has grown about 6% year on year since Mbeki took over. Black outs are mainly being caused by a huge demand that a growing economy is experiencing – for e.g, apartheid South Africa never bothered to electrify black South Africa and now the economy has to absorb that – definitely there is need to grow the capacity which is happening as we speak – a new power station is being built – the money is there. As for the interest rates – check your facts right – yes there has been rate hikes basically to curb South Africans’ spending and borrowing power which pushes the inflation up. In an economy where the new black elite – so called black diamonds are now being given opportunities – you definitely will get this simple mathematics – spending is gonna go up and people are going to borrow and lend till they drop. Education has always been an issue, from the time of apartheid where blacks were handed out Bantu education – now you don’t expect such a big country to suddenly have the experts and revolunise their curriculum over night – remember South Africa’s democracy was negotiated unlike in Zimbabwe where we could do what we wanted.

As for the Sunday Times, its only you a few people who think that way. Health records were stolen from a hospital, Sunday Times came out later with the same records – now if you buy or take stolen property, you definitely have to be arrested – that’s the issue – simply as that – the newspapers are the ones complaining about crime day in day out but now if they start stealing themselves, then where are the journalism ethics.

And for your information, Mbeki has never said he will run for the president of South Africa - that is the problem with your information. Mbeki will run for the presidency of ANC for the third time and the ANC constitution allows him to. Now, where are you getting this idea about him running for 3rd term as country’s president? Unless you are deliberately distorting the truth to suit your own ends?

The coalition is as strong as ever. Maybe you didn’t read about the SACP conference resolution which aligns itself with the ANC forever. Ask us, we will tell you about these events

I am not sure where you find the dictatorship in that. As for Pikoli, inorder to avoid a constitutional crisis, you have to inform the country’s leadership when you are about to arrest the police chief. And also the same Pikoli was busy giving international criminals and murderers who have been trafficking drugs worth more than a billion rands and killing businessmen and witnesses – indemnity from prosecution – the same indemnity blacks are not being accorded. This is the same person who gave Mark Thatcher – the main sponsor of the Guinea coup plot a fine. Here in South Africa , except for the white controlled media, everyone is agreed this guy had to go.

@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

kuthulamatshazi@yahoo.co.uk


I am currently pressed by studies and do not think will be writing anything until the December break. But I have to weigh in here. Do we know what a dictator is? In this day and age do we still have people who are talking destructive language instead of building for the sake of the suffering people in Zimbabwe.
Musonza some 10 months ago you said ZPF would have disintegrated in the 3months following your statement. Its now 10 months or more.
I think as a person who wants to venture into news business you need to adjust yourself and be more realistic and also fight your prejudices. Please take this advice in good spirit. I do not mean it in any bad way.

@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

Brighton Musonza:

Ooooooo now I get it Comrade Peter, in your own words you said, "South Africans can complain all they want – they are even complaining about houses – a grown man wanting the govt to build him a house – plizzzz! While they complain, they forget to study leading to skills shortages and we foreigners then come around, take the jobs, then they start complaining about us taking their jobs".

So, you think Mbeki is right in relying on you, cheap foreign labour at the expense of his own people? Poaching other regional country's skilled manpower for that country's foreign multi-national controlled business sector. Regional countries heavily subsidising an arrogant big brother who doesn't bother to invest in social spending because doctors, teachers engineers, and bankers will always come from the poor pals next door, whose infrastructure is collapsing because they have been reduced to feeder nations. Mbeki, enjoying the less social spending to appease the neo liberals and business sector, now connected to the ruling elite.

So, that tells the whole story of ANC as a party high-jacked by neo liberals and abandoned its social responsibilities.

You said (South Africans) they forget to study, leading to skills shortages and we foreigners then come around. You make me laugh. They are not forgetting mate, but the regime has not taken them to the promised land of post apartheid. I thought, governments have responsibilities to shape the attitudes and behaviour of their subjects.

Then on the drunk Health Minister, you said "her Health records were stolen from a hospital, Sunday Times came out later with the same records – now if you buy or take stolen property, you definitely have to be arrested – that’s the issue – simply as that – the newspapers are the ones complaining about crime day in day out but now if they start stealing themselves, then where are the journalism ethics". Of all people, how can a Health Minister get wasted and preach health matters to the nation, whilst knocked down by a couple of beers?

Now Comrade Peter, again you make me laugh..........ok we take that you are our real world example. Recently you had your own troubles with the ZRP cum Zanu PF Militia or vigilante groups in Zimbabwe, when you were caught, "stealing" pictures of our poor Gold/Diamond diggers in Manicaland which you intended to show to South Africans and the world over through your employer, e-tv, and definitely your bosses were going to give you a pat on the back for a well done "investigative", journalism, but the work of your your fellow jurnos doing the same, you call it stealing. But you were moaning and whingeing that your Camera was broken, and the film taken by Zanu PF militias when you were doing "investigative" journalism, breaking the Zimbabwean rogue media laws of a regime you highly praise left, right and centre.

The coalition is as strong as ever. You must be living in another South Africa. COSATU is now having a fit inside and another outsite, and so is SACP, then the Neo Liberals running the show have their agenda, while Mbeki himself runs around between nationalists, and the hangers-on, and sometimes hibernating in the women's league (like what all modern day dictators do).

And you Comrade Kuthula, Zanu PF is in the vegetative stages of decay. Your dream President, Robert Mugabe has forced the issue of re-election because he is now its leadership and at the same time its cell branch. Ask Jabulani Sibanda, the expelled Zanu PF cadre, now the come back kid of all time, and being groomed to be the new face of violence, or Comrade Hunzvi in reincarnation of the farm invasions fame. This is the legacy of Cde Bob!

@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

Peter Moyo:
Which Cosatu and SACP are you talking about? In UK or the US or the one I know is South Africa ? Coz the ones you are talking about are as ANC as ever and are gearing up for the congress. As for the few that you have heard complaining – its normal for any nation during times of choosing a new leader.
I am not sure if you think that after 300 years of white domination which made sure that blacks were left behind, you want things to be perfect after only 13 years of democracy. Surely you can’t be serious

As for my arrest in Zim, how was that stealing? How do you equate going into a locker room and stealing health records to filming in Zimbabwe . Unless you are just clutching on straws to make a point you surely can’t be serious. But for the benefit of doubt, yes I went to Zimbabwe, reported illegally – did not steal pictures coz there were no pictures already packaged and locked in a safe – and when I was arrested according to that country’s laws I paid a fine. Simple and straight forward. The main thing I complained about was my subsequent abduction by that country’s secret service or CIO long after I had concluded my trial – if you want I can send you a copy of the show that just won an award for investigative journalism. On the Sunday Times issue, the matter is simple, yes the story was good, it was a scoop but then whether you are a journalist or what, if you receive stolen property, you ought to answer to the law coz this is not a lawless country where people by virtue of being journalists they can go around breaking into people’s property and expect not to be arrested.

As for South Africa ’s education – there are so many universities in South Africa and private colleges – its up to South Africans to take up the initiative and learn. And by the way, it’s been only 13 years since these universities opened up to black people – some are still resisting transformation – so an ordinary South African, after completing matric and tertiary would most probably be less than five years experienced. Also teachers need a big revamp and with the shortage of skills, other countries need to chip in. There are more teachers than Zimbabwe needs even at this moment – and some of them are already working illegally as waitresses in South Africa – so it is in south africa’s right to tap into this under utilized experience – with the same teacher sending the rands back home to feed his/her poor relatives. There is no big brother in that.
As for my profession, I remember when I left Standard, I opened opportunities for other younger journalists who could not find a job at the time when I left – so really there was no gap left. Today, I now employ about six Zimbabwean journalists working for my website – Zimgreats.com – something that was impossible when I was still in Zim and I am using Mbeki’s rands to do that. Zimgreats.com is now a registered legal website and newspaper in South Africa which soon will be employing more Zimbabweans in South Africa and back home – again something I could not do back home.

If the Health minister is a drunk – how does that make Mbeki a dictator? And again for your own information – the Sunday Times journalists have not been arrested – it is still just a rumour that they will be arrested. So why is everyone, especially you running into a conclusion? However kana ukadziya moto wembavha…..pedzisa shamwari…
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
K Matshazi:

Yes, I will accept your position as is, but the problem is that you did not say ZPF would be in the vegetative stages of decay. You said it would be non-existent. But by your own admission you acknowledge that you were wrong and now say that it is in the "vegetative stages of decay".

@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

B MUSONZA:

Comrade Pete, you don't get it, do you? The issue is not about imprisonment of journalists by Mbeki or retreat thereof, but the credibility of our supposed crisis go-between. What we are saying is, there are now so many traits of Mbeki's regime that resembles the road map to a fully fledged dictatorship, and hence this lame duck of a leader has so much admiration of another beleaguered dictator across the Limpopo has tried. Now you find opposition leaders joining anti drugs marches in the streets are arrested, using gender balance to thwart opponents, trumped up charges against perceived challengers.

Our succession problems or rather transition from years of dictatorship, as a nation, are now bogged down in ANC power struggles as Mbeki fight a Labour based COSATU, Zuma backing.

Right now Mbeki is fighting hard or privately conniving with one Robert Mugabe not to acknowledge refugee status of millions of Zimbabweans in South Africa because he knows kuti the UN Refugee Agency would finance their repatriation back to Zimbabwe and oust Zanu PF in an election, or at least make it reasonable for UN intervention in the matters to resolve the crisis. How can a country feel comfortable keeping 3-4 million people of another country? Mozambique had a long brutal war, but I don't think we had so many in our country and even during that war, there were some repatriations going on.
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@